How to Hack Your Brain’s Reward System – Chasing Life with Dr. Sanjay Gupta

Welcome to Chasing Life. You know, we’re finally settling into the new year. But I have to tell you, as winter drags on, I’ve been feeling a little stuck lately. It’s hard to describe, but just harder and harder for me to find the motivation. I’m increasingly content to just sort of lie around the house as opposed to getting up and doing things. And I got to tell you, in times like these, a little boost, just a little boost of something, I find can go a long way. And that’s what I wanted to talk about today on the podcast. Something known as a dopamenu.

‘It’s kind of a creative project, meetss sort of list of strategies to use. You know, it’s it’s in some ways it’s a portion of a self-care plan.

That’s Eric Tivers ADHD coach, host of the podcast ADHD ReWired and yes, creator of something known as the dopamine menu. That’s exactly what it sounds like. It is a menu of stimulating or healthy activities that are designed to boost your dopamine. That’s the brain chemical that drives motivation and reward.

So we have everything from like our our appetizers, which is like the little things, you know, they… going for a quick walk or um having a snack or, you know, putting some music on or lighting the candle like little things like that that are pretty low effort.

The idea is pretty simple that it can help brains like Tivers’ stay engaged. Now, he was diagnosed with ADHD at age 19, right as he was on the brink of flunking out of college. But with that diagnosis came a major shift in his life and a new understanding of how his brain works.

A neurotypical brain is kind of like a soundboard or a mixer, right? You can adjust the different channels up and down to get more volume on what you want. That’s how much you don’t. Neurotypical brains do this automatically. In an ADHD brain. Everything’s just turned up.

So nowadays he’s dedicated to helping others find ways to work with their brains instead of working against it.

‘People with ADHD have an interest-based nervous system where most people have an importance-based nervous system. You know, the thing is important, so you prioritize that and get that thing done. For people with ADHD and other neurodivergent people, because we have an interest-based nervous system. It is super hard to actually do the boring thing.

Now I want to tell you right off the bat, this is not just for people with ADHD.

It’s like the people that you meet. You use these strategies, but these are often really great strategies for everybody.

We’re going to help you create your own Dopamenu today, and we’re going to break down how it works, why it matters, and how very simple shifts can boost your motivation and also bring more joy to your day. I’m Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN’s chief medical correspondent. And this is Chasing Life.

I was always kind of a very eh student. Like not great, not awful, but not great. And when I started getting really good grades, it kind of was like a drug. I was like, ooh, I got like, all A’s and a B this semester. I need this again, like in grad school I finished with a 4.0. And at the time that was like, I looked at it as a huge accomplishment. In retrospect, when I think about, well, what does that actually take me to be able to do that? I was sleeping two hours a night. Maybe? It was so unhealthy. And I realized I have kind of done that in my adult life as well. And I just got to this point where I the work that I do to me is so important. I do ADHD coaching. I do a lot of group stuff. My primary way of marketing is through my podcast, ADHD ReWired. And during Covid, like everyone and their mothers started an ADHD podcast. So suddenly the stuff that like I had built and scaled and was going wonderfully. Now all of a sudden there is like the market place for ADHD coaching got very crowded. And the ADHD podcasts basket got very crowded. And so I was having to put in all this extra work and I wasn’t getting the same results from it. It was a very inconvenient time to be burnt out. And you ignore that long enough and it’s like it life’s going to kind of tell you to stop. And so I went through that and I was burning out really, really bad. And I know if I were to try to continue this way, even for another year, that would be it. I’ll be done. And now I’m like, how about let’s focus on the excitement of energy sustainability. Which doesn’t sound as sexy, but like the go, go, go. The hustle culture is so toxic.

I feel like I’m getting a chance to just sort of sit inside your mind. A lot of it here and in here, how you sort of, you know, reckoned with with many of these things that have gone on. Can you give me an idea like where did this this idea of a dopamine menu come from?

So it kind of came out organically. I was having a conversation with Jessica McCabe from How to ADHD. And we were talking about like, ways that we combat boredom. All right. And I’ve always been kind of into wordplay and really bad dad jokes. And it kind of just came out like it was basically I was doing some wordplay and she’s like, that’s really good. And she really liked it. And so that’s kind of that was the origin of the idea of the dopamenu. Cause this idea of, you know, it’s like we don’t want to go to the grocery store hungry, right? So it’s sort of this idea of, you know, like when we’re bored like that’s not the time to think about what we want to do, like because otherwise we’re just going to grab our phones and scroll for way longer than we meant to.

So what what is is it a is it an actual menu?

‘Yeah. Yeah. So it’s kind of got creative projects, meets sort of list of strategies to, to use. You know, it’s, it’s in some ways it’s like a portion of a self-care plan. So we have everything from like our, our appetizers, which is like the little things, you know, they’re going for a quick walk or I’m having a snack or, you know, putting some music on or lighting the candle, like little things like that that are pretty low effort but still can be helpful or adding things. So. All right. So you’re doing the dishes, you’re cooking, put on a podcast. Right? Or, you know, things like that that just add a little bit more stimulation for the brain.

And how how different is this person to person? Is everyone come up with their own dopamenu?

‘Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s actually quite I was doing some searches online and I just put an open menu and then an image search and I actually came up with a lot of people who posted their own dopamenus and I’ve seen some really, really cool versions of this. And then one of the things that I have done, on my own dopamenu, is I’ll also put in like seasonality. I put in like how much sort of dopamine that particular activity tends to deliver for me. Right? So I, I typically will rate it between 1 to 5. So it’s like you’ll see it like in like a menu, right? It’s like it’s priced by how much you think. I even have on there desserts which are kind of like the anti-dopamine, it’s like grabbing your phone to just scrolling social media, you know, drinking, drugging, those kinds of things. You know, things that are not healthy. Right? Like watching another episode of whatever show you have on Netflix. Right? Like we’re trying to stimulate our brain, but like, there’s a net loss. You know, I think that that’s an important thing to to consider when we’re taking a break from from work. Right? So we’re stressed whenever we’ve been at it for a while. So we let’s say we hop on to whatever our social media, you know, channel choice is. And sure, maybe that gives us sort of a plus one on our dopamine. Except transitioning and stopping, which our executive functions cost you two.

That’s interesting.

Right. Kind of thinking about like, wait, yeah, that is actually not worth it like…

That’s really…

‘…because when I first read about this, I thought to myself, Look, we have a pretty good idea of what makes us feel good. Comfort foods, you know, desserts, doomscrolling. Maybe that doesn’t make us feel good, but, you know, cluster-watching television or binge-watching television, whatever. But at the same time, you take it the extra step to say, okay, we realize that many give you a plus one, but what is the cost of that as well, that that has to fit into the menu?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And actually pulling mine up from my appetizers, I have eat lunch away from the desk. I have play a Phish jam. I’m a big fan of the band Phish. I’ve seen them like 50 times. Listen to a podcast, listen to a Ted talk, go outside YouTube videos on motorcycles, and I put a time limit on there as well for 10 to 15 minutes. Guided meditation than I have for my entrees which then I have underneath that says bigger and more satisfying: pickleball. Go for a bike ride. Go for a walk on a nice day, playing piano or guitar, listening to great music, play ping pong, a motorcycle ride. Listen to an audiobook, engage in a new hobby, journaling, drawing, doing something fun with my son Gibson. Getting a massage and on that I have a little calendar icon and a dollar icon because like, you know, some things cost money. Tidying up, which fluctuates for me. Sometimes that is an aversive task. Sometimes it feels good. So it just kind of depends. Searching for concerts to go see, playing with my cats, learning a new song on piano, reviewing my bucket list, reviewing long term goals. Reviewing my current mission. I think it’s important to remind yourself of the why. Often when you have ADHD, otherwise you’re just like doing a task list. And if you’re not feeling connected to it, like it’s super hard to get really engaged in that. And then I have my desserts, as I mentioned, I have scrolling video games, sugary treats, staying up late. So those are the things that aren’t great yet, I tend to you know, those are things that I will go to. And then I have my specials, concerts, vacations, buying something new, going to a movie, date night. Going to a restaurant, going dancing. And so those are kind of the core parts of my dopamenu.

You know, And even when it comes to the desserts, the idea, again, that there are things that you you enjoy in the moment, even though, you know you may pay a price later on, too much sugar or whatever it might be. Same sort of thing with dopamine.

And I would say, you know, this idea of like everything in moderation, including moderation, it’s like, yeah, know the cost. You know, if I’m going to be up all night or up really late and know I’m going to impact my sleep, which is probably going to affect me for a day or two afterwards, right? I better be doing something that was worth it and not something that I’m just mindlessly on online, you know I want to be going to a concert or something where it’s like, that’s going to I’m going to be feeling that and riding that wave for for quite some time. Otherwise it’s not working.

I just want to make sure I understand that people often associate dopamine with with a feeling of happiness, of joy even. Was that lacking in someone with ADHD that you needed more dopamine?

Our brains are under aroused in it’s natural state.

That’s that’s what I’m getting. So that that that’s a new term, aroused. It’s more challenging to arouse your brain if you have ADHD.

Hadn’t I haven’t heard it put like that before.

‘It’s interesting there’s a…I think in 2012 there was this really cool study that looked at it was a group composite image of hundreds of adults with ADHD that they put under fMRI scans and have them do kind of basic, you know, cognitive boring types of tasks. And they in the control group were people without ADHD. And often people with ADHD have been called lazy and we think, well, lazy is effort. So this image compare the ADHD brain to the non ADHD brain and the rewarded ADHD brings the non-rewarded ADHD room. And what it showed is that the ADHD brain is working profoundly harder, putting in more effort to do basic cognitive tasks that are boring and sort of the one-two punch we need more sort of like that, that reward. And we’re also less responsive to it. Like it doesn’t it doesn’t stick as well. Right? There’s this like idea I’ve heard before about like, you know, if you’re talking with kids, if a kid struggling in school say, hey, if you can get your grades up to this, but by the new, you know, whatever gaming system or if you get your homework in this week, you can choose where we go for dinner. They’re all going to choose the gaming system. And like none of them are going to get it because that’s way too long of a period of time to do it. And our brain needs frequency of reinforcement to learn.

Was dopamenu sort of initially a strategy for your ADHD? I mean, or is this something that could be could be more widely used?

Oh, it can absolutely be widely…Here. Do you know, the concept of a universal design?

Not sure. Tell me.

So I think it can probably best be explained with this is kind of little short parable. It’s snowing really hard and it’s kids who are trying to get into the school and the maintenance crew are busy trying to clear off the steps that the kids can get in the school. And there’s a kid in a wheelchair. And he says to the maintenance guy, Can you please do the ramp? And the maintenance guy says to the kid, Look, all these other kids like, you just have to wait. And then the kid says back to the maintenance guy, Well, if you do the ramp, everyone can get in the school including me, right? That’s universal design, right? And I think that when we look at the strategies for managing ADHD, it’s kind of a universal design for life. It’s like the people with ADHD, we need to use these strategies. Like these are often really great strategies for everybody.

I love that. Eric Thank you for sharing that. That that’s, that’s the idea that again, in this case, everyone can walk up the ramp, the dopamenu, could have benefits for everybody, not just those with ADHD. The the idea of writing it down as you did, you have your you have your starters, your appetizers, your entrees, your desserts. How important is it to do that?

I think it’s really important. Otherwise it is just kind of good intentions and anything that we’re planning that has any sort of depth to it. You know, it’s sort of like. If you looked at a map through a straw, that’s how much you can have access to. If you don’t write it down right. Write it down. You can see the whole map and be what you want to when you want to. I spend that time coming up with the ideas. Because you don’t want to figure out where you want to go eat when you’re already hungry, you’re going to the grocery store and you’re already hungry. It’s like you want to have a plan of what you’re going to be doing and when that sort of that need kicks in. You have something you can refer to there. This is something I said I was going to do.

All right. After the break, we’re going to tell you how to create your very own Dopamenu. We’re going to do it together.

How long did it take you to put together? I mean, if someone is hearing this and say and they’re saying, I want to make my own dopamine menu, my dopamenu how did…

I’ve done it with one of my online coaching communities. We did together in like an hour.

So it involves, I imagine, you really taking stock of your life and being really sort of diligent about figuring out what did give you that blast of dopamine. How would you quantify it in some way? How long did it last? What price did you pay to get that that sort of blast of dopamine? Am I on the right track?

Yeah, And it’s also it’s a lot of it’s not just like the big things that give you the blast of dopamine. It’s kind of like what are the things that give you that regular sort of dopamine drip, right? The slow release, but regular release of dopamine to kind of just increase that just a little bit, you know, to to help with the activation, to help with with motivation. Help with learning. Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s really what dopamine does.

Do you find that your menu changes?

What maybe more beneficial may become less or even more later on in life.

‘Yeah. I mean it’s and it’s funny too, because when I was reviewing mine the other day and I see ‘talking to and seeing friends’, I was like, Well, I’m a big introvert and I love my, like, my alone time. Like this past summer, I did two three-night runs at Phish, one in Wisconsin, the other one is in Indiana. And the one I did in Indiana I rode my motorcycle up by myself and it was like I loved it. Like just having that like I don’t have to respond to anyone. Like, I can just do what I want to do, when I want to do it. To me like, I love that and that energizes me. All right? So it’s sort of like understanding, oh like I really need a lot of that alone time to recharge.

Right.

…Myself. So when I saw that on my menu, I was like, sometimes I like that.

Interesting.

Other times, not so much.

So you’re so you got to create the menu. You’ve got to allow the menu to be in a little bit of a state of flux. It’s got to be able to change.

‘I think that it’s it’s a tool, you know, just like our calendar in our to-do list, it’s like just because we captured it and put it in the calendar or the to-do list doesn’t mean we have to do it. You can change our minds.

Yeah, no, I just. I think it’s interesting cause I’m just. I think anyone listening, myself included, listening to you, reflects on what are those things that would fall into their own starter appetizer, their own entree, their own dessert, the big things that would be on their dopamenu. And it’s a really interesting exercise because it makes you sort of put a name and write down things that have actually given you that value in your life. You kind of maybe instinctively know. But to actually put it down and to be able to read it and then go get it from time to time order off the menu, I think is a really interesting exercise.

And I think especially the when sometimes when we feel things in the extreme, it’s almost easier to develop strategies around…

Right.

‘Like because we need it, right? It’s like, you know, life’s hitting us over the head and saying, Hey, pay attention to this because something’s not working for you. But when it’s a little bit like just below the threshold, it’s almost easy to miss what’s happening and then wonder why we feel just in this state of like just not feeling well. Right? And, you know, whether it’s feeling bored or unsatisfied or low-grade depression, that’s almost harder in some ways to to than actually proactively address because it’s not hitting you over the face with it. And I think if you know your tendencies and the patterns around that, you can then say, okay, during this time of year, if you know you have a history of seasonal affective disorder, you can then kind of sprinkle little things throughout your day in your week that just add little bits of dopamine, even just like adding some spice to your food. And you get a nice dopamine hit, right? Because spicy food can actually increase dopamine.

Yeah that that I love that. I think just being intentional about this I almost describe it as a little bit of a state of fog. But I imagine people have their own adjectives for it. But these last couple of weeks in particular, I think it’s been just the kids have not gone to school for a couple of days because of snow days. And it’s just which I love having my kids around, don’t get me wrong, but I’m just saying everything feels a little unsettled. It’s just a little foggy. And the idea that you could add a little spice to your food that I could do what I did before doing this, this interview with you, go outside and just stick my face in the sun for a bit and breathe in nature for a while. I wouldn’t have been as intentional about that in the past. I know that it feels good, but like, you know, you have to eat, so you order off the menu. That’s the thing you have to do. You can’t not eat the idea that you need dopamine and that you should be able to order your dopamine off a menu in the way that you’ve you sort of laid it out, I think is, is it’s a really interesting exercise. It’s something that I’m going to do.

I think especially when, you know, as someone with ADHD there’s definitely this tendency to to to overvalue our now self and discount our future self.

Interesting.

What neuro scholars would call temporal discounting. Right. And so, so many of the strategies that I put into place are really designed to be considerate of my future self.

And that’s what the dopamenu does for you.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Can you just spend a couple of minutes talking us through it? Like, how would I start?

‘Sure. So I use Canva, which is a pretty user-friendly graphic design thing, but you can use paper and pens and pencils, whatever kind of speaks to you from a creation standpoint. And so I had, you know, break it up like a regular menu: appetizers, entrees, desserts, specials. So you can sort of decide like the format that you want to actually use. So I would say put as much on the menu as you as you want to and you can also recognize that, you know, not all items are going to be available. You want to have it highly flexible. You want it to be easy to engage with. One of the things that I think is really important is to have it easily accessible, whether it’s like posted on your fridge or you have it, like you laminate it and put it on your desk. Or even like save it as the lock screen or the wallpaper on your computer. So you’re regularly seeing this, but make it your own. Like I’ve I’ve seen so many different sort of variations of this. I’ve seen it where people add like spice levels. You know, you see that on a menu sometimes, as you know. And that can mean whatever you want it to mean. I mean, like how easy or challenging it might be. It could be how rewarding it is.

So writing it down, but then also this, this how what the objective value is or how rewarding it might be.

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s say I’m sure there’s lots of people listening who know they have that guitar at home that’s just collecting dust and they regularly think about, I wish I was playing more guitar. Well, what if you put the guitar right next to the couch where you normally just turn the TV on? Right. What if you actually put the remote to the TV where the guitar usually is and efforts to to go turn the TV on? And it’s actually just easier to play the guitar. You know, like things like that. So set up your space if you want more journaling because that’s good. You find dopamine in that. I mean, your journal is easily accessible and you have pens that you like to use, right? Make it visually appealing. You know, and even putting in reminders in your calendar say, hey, have you look at your dopamenu you in a while? You know, it’s a very common thing with ADHD is like we have these tools or strategies and then we forget to use the tools or strategies. So I’ll…I’m putting questions in my calendar all the time and says, Hey, are you still doing this?

Right, right.

Right. Because it’s I have learned that, I’ve discovered the strategy, it’s working great. And then I’m like, I have no idea when I stopped doing that. Right? So it’s like I have these sort of safety nets that I create for my my future self.

You on the podcast, you share a lot of stories of people who overcome challenges.

Are there particular ones that really jump out at you and that may may offer some insights for people, especially right now during a, you know, cold, dark season?

I mean, it’s like, yeah, I have 540 some episodes. I was like…

I saw that you’ve been doing this for a while.

‘You know, it’s funny, when I first started the podcast, it was I didn’t have a grand master plan for this podcast. I didn’t think that I was going to actually start a whole side business, which became my coaching business because of it. And so when I started my podcast, it was just it was a solo show. I was just sharing sort of tips and strategies. And then I got an email from a listener who sent this really, really long email saying that they were basically like homeless in their car struggling with alcoholism. And they stumbled upon my podcast somehow and forgot that they were diagnosed with ADHD when they were younger. And as a result of like re-remembering that they had ADHD, they checked themselves into rehab and like basically changed their life as a result. So I got this email and it was just like, this is, this is, this is why I’m doing what I’m doing. But I’m like, It would be really good to have like a check-in with this person. And so I email and like, hey, if we get a check in just to like this on the tail end of the episode? This turned that into an hour-long conversation, which turned into my first interview. And after that I was like, interviews are absolutely the way to go. Like, I just realized I was struggling with every week to plan an outline of what I was going to talk about. And I’m like, I’m way better at being responsive versus like planning. And I think I’m a good interviewer and I’m a curious person. So that was one that was really impactful for me.

I got to say, that was super interesting and I’ve already created my own dopamine menu, my dopamenu. I hope you’ll do the same. That was of course Eric TiVo’s. He’s host of ADHD ReWired and creator of the dopamenu.

Chasing Life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by Eryn Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker, Lori Galarreta, Jesse Remedios, Sofia Sanchez and Kyra Dahring. Andrea Kane is our medical writer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. Amanda Sealy, is our showrunner and Dan Dzula is our technical director and the executive producer of CNN Audio Steve Lickteig. With support from Jamus Andrus, Jon Dionora, Haley Thomas, Alex Manesseri, Robert Mathers, Leni Steinhardt, Nichole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Ben Tinker and Nadia Kounang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.